Episode Transcript
Kristin: Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Channel Mastery Podcast. I'm absolutely honored to introduce today Dr. Len Necefer who is the CEO and founder of NativesOutdoors. Welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you here.
Len: Me too.
Kristin: You are a very busy guy, I know. I would love to be able to start the show by you telling us a little bit about your career, Len. You've done a lot in a relatively short amount of time. You just really created a ton of impact, but the road to NativesOutdoors full time, I think, was not exactly a direct one which a lot of entrepreneurs can relate with. Can you walk us through the journey?
Len: Thinking about it mentally, it felt like a ping pong ball, but I grew up on the Navajo Nation and did my undergrad in University of Kansas and got a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. I thought I was going to end up working in the auto or aerospace industry and then quickly found that policy was something I was interested in.
I went to Carnegie Mellon's Department of Engineering and Public Policy. I got a PhD there and that work led me into working with the US Department of Energy working on renewable energy, energy efficiency projects in native nations across the US. It took me a lot in Alaska and a lot of the west.
Elections happened, policies changed, and I saw an opportunity to continue the work I was doing, which was beginning to get interesting in the outdoor industry and outdoor rec. This was around the time of the [00:05:07] national monument designation in 2017.
I was living and working in Colorado and got connected with the Colorado office of outdoor rec and had a lot of really great connections from that work. An opportunity presented itself to be a professor of American Indian studies and also in Public Policy in the University of Arizona, so I spent three years there.
Alongside of this, I was building and developing this company called NativesOutdoors. We do a lot of different things, but we like to categorize our work into three buckets. We do media and marketing, work with companies looking to work with native communities. We do design work. We also do consulting as well.
It's been a really fun and bumbling road to entrepreneurship and it's always been trying to figure out where's the opportunity and where can we make the most impact. It's been amazing to be on this journey for the past three years.
Kristin: I for one just have to tell you, I’ve admired all of the parts of this career path that have brought you to this place. I remember reading a post on LinkedIn, I think it was last year, where you were talking about the growth of NativesOutdoors. It was just the coolest thing.
You're creating something that is so obviously needed and you're providing it as a solution in such an accessible way. I just want to thank you for the work you are doing and I just feel like the biggest impact is right ahead here.
That's really what we are here to talk about. We're here to talk today about a lot of things, but we're going to start by beginning with a little bit of a news round-up. As we are planning for this show, Len is going to be a presenter at the 2023 Sea Otter Classic Executive Summit in Monterey. All of the details for that as well as any links you hear us talk about today will be on the show notes. Len will be doing a great presentation there on the first day so we're excited to have you there.
It's really cool to see, we have a lot of headlines that are coming out of the news right now about natives, about outdoor recreation, and about a lot of changes that are on the horizon that I think are very important for leaders to know about but they may not know if they are even happening. These headlines are there, but a lot of people are busy reading about Silicon Valley Bank. Let’s elevate it for them. Let's show why this is relevant to their businesses and outdoor rec. We'll just start with the ones you think are the most important.
Len: Looking at the landscape of federal management in the United States, the Biden administration in 2021 made a pretty significant policy change looking to empower tribes and native nations in an elevated role which they are calling co-management of federal public lands.
This is still taking form, but historically, tribes have a number of rights to federal lands, either tied up in treaties or previous congressional actions. A lot of that has been focused on central site preservation or other cultural resources located in federal lands. This particular change is going to place tribes more in the decision-makers’ seat about how federal lands are managed.
This can be everything from mining to, in this case, interest here is outdoor rec and how outdoor rec is managed in US federal lands. That's been a huge development and it's going to be a case-by-case, region-by-region basis. One of the things that's also been percolating alongside this is an increasing interest of tribes and individual native business owners on establishing an outdoor rec industry and community within native communities.
I would say that in many ways, that particular economic interest in outdoor rec communities is fairly nascent in a lot of native nations. I think there's a huge opportunity in building those particular outlets and also ensuring that that can connect to this larger question of co-management. At our work in NativesOutdoors, we are interested in ensuring that these outdoor rec economies can develop semesly in tribal lands and federal lands.
Kristin: It's an awesome vision and talk about impact. We do read a lot about everything that's changed with legislation from last year around these gateway communities and how they are trying to clean up oil wells. A lot was packaged into certain things that came out last year. Now you're really making this real. You're looking at the workforce. You're looking at challenges there with these gateway communities.
The economic viability and the driver that can be for the tribal leaders to see this is truly an opportunity for us, whereas maybe in the past there might have been an antagonistic relationship there. Can you talk a little bit more about that and the opportunity that's here with what's happening with this co-management effort?
Len: There are a number of instances of conflict between the outdoor rec community and tribes over access to certain areas on federal lands. Cave Rock, Lake Tahoe is really a prominent example. Bear Lodge, Devil's Tower in Wyoming. Those are also some bigger instances of conflict, but those can also happen on a much localized level. Places like [00:11:10] visitation and ancestral sites, hiking trails that are being established in some of these areas that are fairly sensitive have raised a lot of concern among tribes of this management.
One of the things that's really interesting that we're seeing is that historically, outdoor rec has been fairly inaccessible to a lot of native communities due to historical underinvestment in communities, whether that is access to federal funds for trail building, et cetera.
One of the things we are seeing is there's an opportunity especially in some gateway communities. I'm thinking of the southwest of Moab or Farmington, New Mexico. They are fairly approximate to tribal lands. One of the challenges of many of these smaller communities is how do you build a sustainable workforce? How do you ensure there's consistency in the people that you employ? The opportunities that are there.
Just an hour or two away from these gateway communities or even less, there are native communities with a number of folks that are wanting to live and work in their home community. Farmington, New Mexico is a great example. Just right down the road of Shiprock, New Mexico. There’s a whole interest in young folks that want to live and work in this region but often find challenges in doing so.
In a lot of our work, we've seen fairly big disconnects and not quite a lot of communication between these native and non-native communities, these border towns, on how do you have this regionalized approach to economic development. I think (really) when we're looking at the opportunities for both the native communities and these gateway communities, how do we think about these areas and regions and how do we tap into the resources that are available both human and natural, to really help create a sustainable outdoor rec economy in some of the rural parts of the US.
Kristin: With this co-management regionally-focused, I think investment and just what's coming into play there. We're again going to put the links on the show notes to the headlines here. It feels like there's going to be a little bit of air work and ground work, if you'll forgive the word analogy. I think the headline on the news on the federal level should drive action within the regions, but only if there's almost a team mentality. I think that's what you are saying is missing.
It's just been this disconnect for a long time. Frankly, I think that's what you created with NativesOutdoors so many years ago that grew like wildfire. It's because you actually created a portal for native people to belong to the outdoor recreation industry. It felt like something that was theirs, too.
That same tenet and same notion, somehow if we could support that happening in key regions. There are tons of brands listening to this, tons of retailers. There are actual physical infrastructure points like Farmington is a great example. They are marketing the you-know-what out of outdoor recreation. It just feels to me that all of the pieces are there. We just need to get people working in the same direction.
Len: I think, especially from the non-tribal outdoor industry side, there's a real important need in building these connections. For a lot of tribes and native nations, there hasn't been a whole lot of (until recently) involvement in the outdoor rec industry. For a lot of tribal leaders, when I go and talk to a number of them about a number of related topics, this topic of outdoor rec is fairly foreign and not well-understood.
In a lot of instances, the feedback I have gotten has largely been about the impacts, the trail erossions, the number of visitors, et cetera, but not necessarily the economic side of it, the industry side, and the opportunity that it presents for these tribes as well.
Once we talk about here's an opportunity for tapping into what's happening on the federal lands right next to you, or in some instances it's also developing that industry, a bunch of tribal lands. There are some examples of that that are really great, but I think if that connection isn't built, I think there's a threat that this can basically lead to more conflict on land management and et cetera.
I think in this particular instance, tribes and much more of the driver seat of federal lands management can pose a serious risk to outdoor rec. I think there's been a number of really interesting and successful models of where this has been happening. I think about the [00:16:22] education investment in HBCU, historically black colleges, universities, and also tribal colleges. That's helping establish and build these connections and threads between these communities that have historically been fairly separated.
Kristin: Again, we'll start that additional headline into the show notes. There are a couple and one of them is you need to have a membership to see, but we'll do everything we can to make sure it's accessible.
Let's go into what we talked about before when we were playing pitch and catch getting ready for our talk today. We are both talking about just cycling as part of the outdoor recreation world and how in terms of diversity, in your opinion, you felt like the intention might be there but the overall momentum has been lagging. You and I are talking, is it a cost barrier? Is it the size of companies? Why is this happening?
Now you're really talking about some wins and you just mentioned one and we have a lot to talk about, more headlines. I think what would be beneficial for leaders for outdoor rec businesses and cycling brands to see athletes and land managers is that success looks different today. The partnership with what you just brought up with the EF education in Cannondale taking the collegiate level approach with marginalized communities, that's different than a car sponsorship with a race. That's the recipe everybody's seeing in marketing.
Can you share a few more impactful wins that really deserve to get some spotlight right now so that people can understand that success looks different with these endeavors?
Len: I look at the cycling industry broadly and racing is a huge component of what drives the industry and a lot of the marketing around that. Growing up on the res, we’ve never had roads good enough to ride a road bike. The cycling that happens there tends to be more of what I would say fall into that realm of adventure gravel cycling and pointing your rake down a railroad and seeing where it will take you. The cycling there is definitely much less glamorous as compared to the way it's depicted, as compared to road racing.
On Navajo lands, there's not a lot of trail infrastructure that has been developed and in a lot of instances, it's riding down in places that weren't necessarily designed or made for bikes. One of the folks that will be joining us in the Sea Otter event is a man named Jon Yazzie who established a bike packing company. He's been getting a lot of press about what he's been doing to establish his guiding company, but also using it as a way to empower native youth to look at the landscape differently, look at these roads differently, and take on these adventures.
There's been a lot of coverage of him on places like The Radavist and others about what he's been doing. That's a really great example of two people—Nadine as well—that are really taking this to a new level.
Another place of interest as well is the Eastern Band Cherokee. They are hosting a bike race the same week as Sea Otter so they're not going to be able to join us, but they've built some pretty amazing mountain bike tracks across tribal lands and they are looking at investing one more in being the test case of how do you develop these sorts of economies and industries on tribal lands and sharing that with other tribes.
They are also looking at it as being a conduit for developing athletic talent as well. Having it be the place where native riders can cut their chops and become strong riders. That's been an interesting approach in the way they have been looking at the long term, but more importantly sharing this win with other tribes in the areas as well.
Kristin: That's super cool. I love hearing that. I'm sure that you've been reading about an EF education writer. Is it Neilson Powless and Shayna Powless’ sister? He's on fire early season this year. [00:21:05]. I can't wait to see what he does. Not only for the United States are we excited, but he's a native racer. I think he's so cool and really open and proud about it in all of his interviews.
I just think that's great that there's development going into creating more success. Let's face it, it's expensive. It's a full time commitment for a family to get a young person into that ecosystem. That's cost-prohibitive for I'd say 99% of people, let alone natives. We have the shining example and I think it's really great. I appreciate it so much that you're sharing that.
Again, these successful joint ventures or partnerships look different today because we are trying to create a different group of people around the table driving growth in outdoor recreation, so we really need to change what the markers of success look like. The way you're bringing up Jon Yazzie’s business is a way to show that, and he's basically enabling a different lens for people to look through to see the land that they love while on a bike.
That makes somebody who grew up in that area feel like they belong to that, that adventure-seeking cycling passion. That's there for everyone. It's everybody's health and wellness, so I'm just happy to hear these stories and I'm really excited to hear more of them unfold as we get together in Monterey.
As we are looking at the co-management piece to go back to that headline, this is something federally mandated but regionally-focused. It is going to change, I think, access as well as permitting, and it's something that will potentially have short- and long-term implications that are all positive.
If we look at the—I'd say infrastructure is a bad word—regions that are hoping to focus on to create these bridges between outdoor rec, tribal leaders and communities with these gateway communities, it really seems like there’s probably some pretty great infrastructure in place in terms of brands, ambassadors who live there, retailers, and existing guiding companies. I'm really hoping we can spread your message far and wide in terms of what this means with the future of outdoor recreation, opening the portal for everybody to come in and enjoy it.
One thing I want to ask and I know it's probably top of mind with our audience listening today is I think there's an interesting approach and direction that this co-management can bring in terms of stewarding the land and having it not be about numbers, but maybe quality over quantity. Have you seen anything emerge on the horizon in that way?
Len: I just was dealing with this morning on some film, permitting. The [...] National Monument is the largest monument right now that really has an active co-management regime that is happening on federal lands. In applying for a commercial film permit in that region, we have to be very judicious about the places we were selecting because of their proximity to ancestral sites, some people call them ruins, and the various cultural resources that were in there and then talking to the BLM. It potentially adds a layer of complexity to how commercial filming happens on federal lands, for example.
For a lot of brands, that's a real thing, thinking about how you do marketing, where you make your brand films, et cetera. Are they going to be happening on or near places that have interest in the tribes? In a lot of cases, the reasons aren't going to be disclosed. You're just probably going to get a no.
I think in looking at how the management is going to happen by looking at the Bureau of Land Management, Forest Service Land, those federal agencies have mandates that look at the lands as a natural resource to be extracted. That's embedded and baked into their management models, which is not to say that isn't an important thing that comes out of it.
For tribes, that's not necessarily the way to which they look at these landscapes. There can be a lot of internal friction around that, but I think what we're looking at is that there's going to be a much more conservative approach into how recreation gets developed on federal lands. I always think about whether the tribe has an investment in that happening.
In the case of outdoor rec, I could see there being opportunities being built. If there's an increased support and development of outdoor recreation economies on tribal lands, I think there will be a much easier path to ensuring that management happens much more seamlessly.
I think it's going to be case-by-case basis, region-by-region basis, and not every tribe is in the position to do co-management. Some are better equipped than others, et cetera. There are a lot of unknowns on how it is going to happen at a granular level right now.
Kristin: I think there will be certain communities that we can hold up as an example, which you've done today. Also, just looking at the offices of outdoor recreation as they continue to strengthen, those are also very state-by-state and very regionally-driven within those states. I think the model has almost taken shape, I wouldn't say accidentally, but it's all been very new. We've studies often that you’ve watched it.
I came to that whole fray with Luis Benitez and I think you may have before that but that was my entry. I learned a ton watching him set up Colorado. I just feel the whole approach has been state-by-state and again, it goes into the most important places within that state.
As we are watching the evolution of land management with co-management, I think that if we look at it as more change, it may be difficult. If we look at it instead around learning from this new approach and everybody has a seat at the table, I think we can do far more to be stewards to the land from a outdoor recreation sandpoint to grow it for everybody to make sure it's maintained and kept for future generations which is the genesis of these offices in the first place.
We have nothing but blue sky ahead there, but it really depends on how we show up to that conversation. I feel like that's where we look to you as one of our leaders in terms of change is all around us. We should have a PhD in change by now, going through COVID. This is just one more important direction that we need to be very committed to, to make sure we have a future that works in an inclusive way for everybody.
I just feel like this conversation is only the beginning of it. We'll definitely get more into it at the summit. You're going to bring more examples in terms of peers in your community across the country. I just really want to encourage our listeners today to continue to get involved. How can they do that by supporting NativesOutdoor and native American entrepreneurs in the outdoor recreation industry? What's your advice for people who really have a strong intention? They are curious, but they don't know where to go.
Len: We can definitely consult with you on that if that's something of interest. I think one of the things we've been really keen on doing in NativesOutdoors is building the pipeline of talent for native communities into industry. We've done that through the athletic lens of supporting athletes and getting them into [00:29:23] film makers, and other folks working in that realm. I think more opportunities and more conduits that help build those capacity and talent pipelines are really needed.
There's not quite enough investment happening, but from our work, we've seen a lot of amazing returns, just impacts in people's own lives and what having a job in the outdoor industry has done for them and allowing them to work in their home community. I think for the native communities as well, it also provides this opportunity to build and support capacity within their own communities. That's on native side.
On the industry side, one of the things we've seen a lot of success in is just building authentic stories and also opportunities of working with native artists, say for example, in avoiding the issues of cultural appropriation but basically ensuring that a product in some instances support what the customers are waiting on native designs and having a story embedded in and feeling like they're purchasing a product that is doing something good for the world.
We've been able to touch on these from different angles but really what we are seeing is there's not quite enough investment into the capacity pipeline to ensure looking into the future that the outdoor rec and cycling industry have a footprint and a foothold within our community specifically.
Kristin: There's so much opportunity there and I think it's really up to us to highlight that and show here's where you can get involved. You can count on that coming out of the summit. We're going to do more content to make it actionable so that people don't just go to an event and come home with a bunch of notes that they don't have the time to do anything with.
That's really what I think we did a great job with last year. We really tried to make this networking event and the programming that we're bringing in actionable. I’m counting on the most important parts of what you are going to present into an actionable format for more content after we get out.
Please tell us where we can learn more about NativesOutdoors, about your consulting. Also, before we round up today, I really want to make sure to get you to talk a little bit about all the exciting things you have going on with your content creation. You're just doing absolutely killer work. I want to be able to get that out there, too, so people know where they can find some of the films that you've been involved with.
Len: We are active on LinkedIn and share a lot of our work there, NativesOutdoors and of course my personal LinkedIn. natives-outdoors.com is our website. There's a curation of the number of projects that we've worked on in recent years.
We're taking on a lot of different little projects right now, but we've been working a lot on talking about the drought in the west. We're doing a wildlife film with a man named Ben Masters who did an amazing film called Unbranded a few years back, telling the story about the connection on water and the impacts of drought on wildlife in the greater south west.
We are doing a lot of work there, and then of course a lot of branding content working with state tours and bureaus, and also companies doing some product development as well. We'll be launching and releasing a product with Bogs, a footwear company based out of Portland, next year. This year you can see some of that product and collaborations we've done with Smartwool and Weston Skis. We've had our fingers in a lot of parts of the upper industry. It's been fun.
Kristin: That's awesome. I love watching in every way you're growing. It makes sense. I hate to say do more because you're already so busy, but we just need more.
Thank you so much for all that you do, and know that we will be bringing a recap after the summit as well for those of you in our awesome audience that won't be able to make a trip to Monterey, which by the way, you should. It's going tobe an incredible event.
You can find out everything you need to know by looking up seaotterclassicsummit.com. Everything you need to know is there. Len is going to be one of our presenters and you're also bringing several awesome colleagues with you. We're all so excited to meet all of you and host you there. Thank you so much for your time. This has been awesome.
Len: Excited for Monterey.
Kristin: Thanks. All right. We will catch you next time.
